Protein rates extremely high!!!!

Kiashu

Thankyou, Susan. This makes sense to me. Essentially the body adapts to everything we do, so any changes we make need to be gradual and sustainable.

For example once I trained a vegan who decided to start eating meat again. I said: "Start with a small amount, not even an ounce - and make it part of a larger meal with stuff you're used to eating, like say you make a bolognese with vegies." She went home and bought a tray of lamb chops, grilled and ate them all. This had unpleasant effects on her digestive system.

The more of this or that food we have, the better our bodies get at digesting it; the less we have, the worse. Our bodies aren't machines, they adapt. I think that's fair to say, yes?

DrBlair

Hi Guys; I just stumbled across your website while searching for something else and thought you might be interested in learning about what current muscle and diet research actually says.

Maintaining muscle as we age is one of the most important factors in maintaining health and longevity.

3 things stimulate muscle formation;
growth hormone, exercise and protein intake.

As we age; (endogenous) growth hormone disappears and we are left with protein and exercise.

The trigger that kicks off muscle formation is called mTOR (look it up)
It will seem counter-intuitive to body builders, but; after exercise you need less protein to start muscle formation - not MORE protein - because the exercise itself is a stimulant.
But I digress.

For protein to trigger mTOR, you need about 2.5 grams of leucine and you generally need about 30 grams of (animal) protein to achieve 30 grams of protein.
(Vegetarians need to eat a truck-load of stuff to get 2.5 g leucine, which is why it's a good idea for vegetarians to consider BCAA suup's)

Bottom line; adults over age 30 need a minimum of 30 g protein, 3 times a day to MAINTAIN muscle mass and bone health
(bone is a protein matrix with Calcium hung on it)

This is about 1.5 g / kg = 0.7 g / lb body weight
To increase muscle mass; bump this up to about 1.8 g / kg (body builders)

To cut calories; maintain protein, get enough healthy fats and cut carbs.

Oh.... one more tip; eat more omega-3's; aim for a 1:1 ratio omega 3-omega 6
(There's a rabbit hole you disappear into ;-> )

The go-to-guy for this info is Dr Donald K Layman
Explanatory YouTube videos are as follows below

Experience shows; best to digest the first 4 videos before attempting the 5'th.
( "Coach Juma" doesn't have the most vibrant personality)
If you stick it out to the very end of video 5 you will learn that mTOR goes dormant after about 2 hr.s and can't be re-triggered until an interval of about 4.5 - 5 hr.s has passed. So space meals out by 4.5-5 hours.

For a 170 lb guy like me to put on muscle; I need about 140 g protein / day
Dr Layman Rx's that your first and last meals have the larger protein doses.

I usually achieve this with a 45 g whey shake at 8 am, a 30 g 'normal' meal at 12:30 and 5 pm and a bed-time 35 g shake

so watch the first 4 videos; (they're only about 15-30 minutes each )

Then you'll be ready to handle the longer more complex one;

Happy Trails
adams.blair@gmail.com

1; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m1pfBoqvMY
2; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2-u8-gJdag&t=92s
3; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Fj02bMbUE&t=195s
4; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6J3edfXOQ&t=214s
LAST, MORE COMPLEX VIDEO;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cM-y_Mos74&t=3s

PuterMan

@DrBlair Thank you!

DrBlair

So......

Maybe the title of this thread could be changed? 🤔 🙄 🙃

Doug_L

I have been using the app for about a year and just now am starting to review the forum. This notion of the protein amount being too high struck me. I am keto, and on a 75:20:5 ratio of fats to protein to carbs. It’s worked very well for me. That said, are these numbers then right?: at 1,780 cals/day, the app has me at 138 grams of fat, 111 grams protein and 22 net carbs. Just looking at it, the straight math doesn’t seem right, but I am not sure if I am missing something. Many thanks!

DrBlair

I don't use the app.
As I said in my post above; I just stumbled across the website while searching for something else and found their thoughts about protein to be out of touch with current muscle and diet research.
If you watch the video interviews with Dr. Layman posted above, you will learn that 90 g protein per day is about the minimum because you need 2.5 g Leucine to trigger mTOR and that should be done 3-4 times per day at 4.5 - 5 hr. intervals.
To get 2.5 g Leucine, you need at least 30 g protein.

If you want to build muscle; Dr Layman Rx's 1.8 g protein per Kg bodyweight, which for a 170 lb person like me works out to about 140 g protein per day, which is significantly above what the "experts" running this website seem to think.

I can't advise unless I know your height, current weight and weight goals.

The best way I have found to lose fat is to do a fasted weight workout and consume a 40-50 g whey protein-olive oil shake during the the last 15 minutes of the workout. Then 4.5 hrs later; have a meal and repeat that 4.5 hrs later

PuterMan

@Doug_L Sounds about right. I use 70, 25, 5 but don't forget that fat contributes much more in term of calories. This is not exact but (138x7)+(111x4)+(22x4) = 1498 calories. The values are not exact round number hence the difference of 282 calories.

DrBlair

Sorry; I'm not sure what "70, 25, 5" means but, if you're only taking 70 g protein per day; you really need to watch the videos posted above.
The most basic rule for good health, especially as you get older, is to maintain or increase your muscle mass. Nothing else will keep you as healthy as that basic principle. Watch the videos.
Minimum for everyone - including vegetarian females - is to have at least 3 meals per day, where each meal contains at least 30 grams of (animal,if possible) protein.
30 g protein is required to provide the 2.5 g Leucine that is needed to activate mTOR.
(Vegetable protein doesn't do this nearly as well as animal protein)
Watch the videos to find out more about mTOR and why the meals need to be spaced out by 4.5 - 5 hours.
Not easy, but that's why so many elderly people become frail and stricken with osteoporosis etc.

PuterMan

@DrBlair >>Sorry; I'm not sure what "70, 25, 5"<< This refers to the proportion of calories derived from Fat (70%), Protein (25%) and Carbohydrates (5%). So in the case of Doug_L on 75:20:5 ratio of fats to protein to carbs he is getting 138 grams of fat, 111 grams protein and 22 net carbs. Personally being older I go for 63.7g of fats which gets adjusted upwards by the amount of exercise, 143g of protein and 25g of carbs. The protein is based on body fat of 2.5% giving a lean body mass is 72 kg and 72 kg × 2 g/kg = 143 g.

DrBlair

You don't say what your actual weight is but from the "2.5% body fat" I'm guessing you weigh 162 lb / 74 kilo?
First; did you actually mean 25% body fat ?
If your body fat were 2.5%, you would probably be dead.
Nerves need a fat coating - Myelin - if you got down that low; nerves, brain and other organs would have difficulty functioning properly.

Check out this picture of very low fat individuals, none of whom are as low as 2.5%;
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffnt&amp;q=body+fat+%+pictures&amp;atb=v231-1&amp;iax=images&amp;ia=images&amp;iai=https://cdn2-thevladarcompany.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Body-Fat-Examples.jpeg
Do you look anything like these guys?

If you watch the videos I've posted above you will see that Dr Layman feels that for bodybuilders, 1.8 g protein per kilo body weight is sufficient
1.8 x 74 = 133 g protein per day.
You could probably swap those 10 extra protein grams for some carbs

PuterMan

@DrBlair 73.35 Kg this morning. I don't think 2.5% body fat refers to total fat content but to excess fat which is what I understand it to mean. Unfortunately no I don't have the muscles those guys have! The calc for lean body mass is in the Cronometer program so you would have to ask them what they understand by % body fat.

Re swapping the extra 10g for carbs - NO WAY! Swap them for fat perhaps but I am not about to up the level of carbs over 25g as that has been working well for me.

DrBlair

If you're looking to lose fat, the best way I've found is to fast for 16 hours, then do a 60-75 minute workout and at about 30-40 minutes into the workout; start drinking a 50 g protein shake (Dr Layman's Rx for 'first meal of the day')

See this Thomas DeLauer Youtube video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=qmiaeci9dSs&feature=youtu.be
At about 7 minutes into this video Thomas Rx's; add fructose, other carbs (dextrose / maltodextrin) and coffee to cause an insulin spike that will drive the protein into the muscle cells.

Thomas talks about using solid foods, but if you use whey and other powders to create a liquid shake, you can start sipping while you workout and speed things up a bit, which may potentiate the desired insulin spike.
Take salmon oil pills to get the 2-3 g omega 3's he Rx's
Take a vitamin A pill
Thomas pushes grass fed beef because he gets a kickback from the company he constantly advertises for (it is good for you but.....)

PuterMan

NEVER take fructose!!! [https://youtube.com/watch?v=UvlXa9jW3kE](The trouble with fructose)

PuterMan

Or Ken Berry
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=a81DZVZvYN0] (Fruit is BAD?? (7 Serious FRUCTOSE Facts) 2021)

CalorieGuru

They told us to load up on bread and avoid fat for 30 years until the "experts" died off and new experts took over.

Vegan diets are bad, Keto is bad. Eating hot dogs is bad. Everything is bad. Remember this.

Regarding the OP, the RDA is the "minimum" to sustain your body; if you sit in a chair all day or are bedridden; use that number.

The idea that 140lb person only needs 50g of Protein is just wrong. I average twice the RDA, and frankly since I've been dieting I don't think I'm getting enough. 1/2 rotisserie chicken is 80g of protein.

One important point is that if you're not getting protein calories, you're getting calories from fat or carbs. The RDA for carbs is 200-300 which is guaranteed to keep your blood sugar through the roof so you can't burn fat. This is why you need to ignore the experts whenever possible; particularly if you're trying to lose weight.

DrBlair

If you watch any of the YouTube videos of Dr Donald K Layman, you will learn that current research indicates that long term health is best maintained by triggering mTOR 3-4 times a day at 4.5 hour intervals.
To trigger mTOR; you need to ingest about 2.5 grams of leucine.
You need to eat about 30 grams of good quality protein to obtain 2.5 g Leucine.
Ergo; a minimum of 90 grams protein per day is needed to maintain health as you age.
Best amounts of protein are 1.4 - 1.8 grams per kilo body weight.
But EVERYONE should get 90 g / day minimum.
A 110 lb person weighs 50 kilos. 90 g protein for this person would be 1.8 g / kilo.
If you need to cut calories; cut carbs first, fats second.
The following YouTube video covers these points, but is quite detailed and probably requires viewing of the other videos I posted in my previous comment above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cM-y_Mos74&amp;t=107s
(for explanation of the terms used; see my more detailed post with additional videos above)

PuterMan

@CalorieGuru >>This is why you need to ignore the experts whenever possible; particularly if you're trying to lose weight.<<

100% !!!

DrBlair

Well.....
I wouldn't say 'ignore the experts'
I'd just say; choose your experts carefully; there are 'experts' and then there are EXPERTS. It's usually easy to differentiate.
For example; google Dr Don Layman; check out his CV.
You can see; he probably knows what he's talking about.
( I hit my goal weight 6 months ago and am now adding back 1/2 lb per month - hopefully muscle ;-> )
The guidelines I follow are;
1; get 1.8 g protein / kilo body-weight, 3 times a day, at 4.5 hour intervals
2; weigh yourself naked first thing every morning - I use a Nokia 'Body' scale that tracks it on a phone app. Then, I track my rolling 7-day weight average on a spreadsheet.
Daily fluctuations can be very discouraging. A 7-day average is smoother and more motivational.
3; adjust carb & fat intake for the day as needed to reach goals
I usually have a 'keto' breakfast, or my first meal is after a fasted workout that includes 30-45 g carbs to create an insulin spike that drives the protein to the muscle cells, coffee and 2-3 g omega-3's are added to make it more effective
(Thank you Thomas DeLauer)
4; 30-90 minutes of some kind of intense exercise, 6 days a week,
but realize; "your mouth can always outdo your workout" - don't count on exercise to be your main fat loss driver

CalorieGuru

"Dr Layman" is exactly why I steadfastly stand by my statement.

I lost 21 lbs eating stuff I liked. Here's my protein chart the last 8 weeks:

Micro-managing your protein intake is ridiculous. Some days I eat 1/2 a chicken and some days I have a big salad. You eat more than you need some days and less on other days. Your body knows what to do. I'm not going to make chicken parm instead of eggplant parm because I'm worried about not getting enough protein. I eat what I feel like eating.

DrBlair

I'm not so concerned about losing weight. I'm more concerned about getting enough protein so we maintain our muscle and bones for optimal health as we age.

PuterMan

@CalorieGuru Well done on the weight loss but I have to make the observation that your protein intake is on the low side in my opinion, depending of course on how old you are. Here is my protein for the last 8 weeks.

@DrBlair agreed of course provided you are at a suitable weight already, i.e. not in the overweight or obese category.

PuterMan

By the way, I do not micro manage my protein. It happens to work out like that due to my normal eating habits.

DrBlair

If Don Layman says 1.8 g / kilo is optimal for body builders, then that's what I'm going with. 140 g / day

CalorieGuru

@PuterMan I weigh less than you do. I eat a lot of Italian food and do a salad meal every other day, so there's a lot of fat/olive oil and cheese in my diet. I'm averaging 80g of fat per day and about 80g of protein. I'm still losing so I'm on a 1500 cal/day diet (1 small meal and 1 big meal). Once I go back to 3 meals and give up the salad meals I'll be up over 100.

The Mayo clinic says "older people" may need 1.2 - 1.5g per day and I'm in that range now. I'm looking to maintain at around 140lbs so 1.2g/kg is 75g and 1.5 is 95. If you're not doing intense workouts 200g of protein a day seems like too much to me at your weight.

@drblair Various "experts" recommend 1.6-2.2g/kg for muscle-building so you can listen to whoever you want. Listening to just 1 expert is always a mistake as we've learned from Dr Fauci.

DrBlair

My weight; 170 lb = 77.3 kilo x 1.8 g/kilo = 139 g protein; easy to do in 3 meals/day

If you wanted to follow Layman's guidelines; you could have 3 meals,
each with 30 g protein (90x4= 360 cal)
20 g carbs at each meal (20x4x3 = 240 cal)
This leaves 900 cal for fat = 100 grams = 33.3 g fat per meal
There's a lots of ways to vary it; increase the carbs and decrease the fat according to your taste but....
Current research says; if you want to maintain your muscle and keep your bones healthy as you age (bones are just minerals hung on a protein lattice) you should trigger mTOR 3 - 4 times per day at 4.5+ hr. intervals
It takes 30 g of 'complete' protein to get the 2.5 g Leucine that triggers mTOR
WATCH THE VIDEOS - it makes sense
A quick easy way to make a 30 g 'keto' protein shake; 35-40 g whey + 20-25 ml olive oil - tastes like ice cream

PuterMan

@CalorieGuru >>200g of protein a day seems like too much<< That was only 3 days out of 8 weeks. If you look at the chart you can see I am around 150g average protein a day.

@DrBlair Stop with the increase the carbs LOL! Carbs is bad. 30g per day max as far as I am concerned. (Though I do have the occassional 'bad' day when I hit 60 or 70g)

DrBlair

Cheat days are good for the BMR and the Soul.

Southern Barbecue Brunch is the best way to start a Sunday 😎

CalorieGuru

30g per day of carbs is abusive. 50-70 is "low carb"

A pizza and ice cream is a cheat day. A bowl of rigatoni and sausage is a cheat day. 200g of protein is a whole chicken for lunch and a big steak for dinner. It's abusing your body to digest that much protein in 1 day unless you're 240 lbs.

CalorieGuru

People need to be aware that @drBlair is not someone the avg person should listen to. Most people don't engage in daily rigorous weight training. A 2000 calorie brunch will set you back a week unless you fast on Monday. This is the Tim Ferriss school of thought; if you read his book you'd notice that he works out for hours every day; getting food advice from people that burn 1000 calories working out doesn't work for the average lifestyle.

DrBlair

"daily" rigorous weight training?? Me? Someone's fantasizing....
It need not be 'daily' but if weight training isn't 'rigorous'; it ain't worth much.

I believe one should “exercise” 6-7 days a week.
Some US gov. agency recently said we should all exercise 10 hrs/wk. – but what % of the population does that?
Try to be part of that %, but if you miss it sometimes; just enjoy being alive, outside and able to walk. Not everyone can do that, these days.

In a perfect week, I do weights Mon, Wed, Fri, for 70-80 minutes per session,
bike or ski 2-4 times a week and walk my dog 7 days a week.
But as we all know, every week isn’t perfect; don’t be hard on yourself.

200 g protein per day is appropriate for a 244 lb bodybuilder; 244 lb = 111 kilos, 1.8 g protein/ kilo = 200 g. There ARE such people. They ENJOY doing that.

I’m not sure how 200 g protein/day when you don’t weigh 244 is
“abusing your body.”
I don’t see how you can pick an arbitrary number and say;
“30 g carbs / day is abusive” Sounds pretty judgmental….
Or, maybe it’s just a giant ‘Tomahawk’ steak. 200 g protein and no carbs.

I weigh 170 lb - 77 kilos. Down from 190 lb a couple of years ago. I'm 70 years old.
To gain muscle;I use progressive weights + 1.8 g protein / kilo = 139 g protein / day.
That’s not a big stretch; I have 3 meals per day at 4.5 hr. intervals to ensure that I trigger mTOR at every meal.
( See Dr. Donald K Lyman YouTube videos to learn about mTOR )

Don’t be terrified of Fructose ! It’s not going to kill you.
Look at Thomas DeLauer’s YouTube video;
BEST Plan to Build MUSCLE with Intermittent Fasting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=qmiaeci9dSs&feature=youtu.be
At 7 minutes into this, he describes the meal he has after doing a fasted workout.
He uses fructose and glucose to spike Insulin.
Insulin is neither good nor bad; it just does it’s job.
If you've taken Biochemistry / Physiology courses, you may remember;
carbs, taken post-exercise, spike insulin and the protein you've just eaten is driven into your muscle cells – not into your fat cells.
Carbs are not ALWAYS bad. Carbs can be your friend.
Don’t be afraid of learning things. Don’t just slavishly follow THE Expert.
By using this technique; you can bounce back from a 2000 cal. Brunch in ONE day.
I routinely see my weight drop 1.5-2 lbs overnight if fast for 18 hours and then have the post-workout meal Thomas describes; IT WORKS
I've modified his Rx to be a liquid shake, so I can start drinking it about half-way thru my workout.

It has been widely believed that ‘cheat’ days / cheat meals, once a week prevent your BMR from reducing your diet effectiveness.
Like many things in biology, it is debatable, but it is widely believed.
And, as I said previously, cheat meals are good for the Soul 😉
But not more than once a week.

An excellent morale-building technique is; track your weight in a spreadsheet and have it calculate your rolling 7-day-average weight. It smooths out the curve, reduces the effect of those frustrating daily blips and makes cheat days less damaging. It's also a great idea to note all your food and booze for each day on the line of the spreadsheet where you recorded your weight.
As time goes by; you can refer to this to see what makes you go up and what makes you go down.

Consider the Nokia 'Body' scale. It sends your daily weight to a phone app that automatically graphs your weight (and other data) and once a week, it emails you the previous week's average. Good for those who don't know their way around a spreadsheet