Choline challenge

DonnaLH

Any vegans out there (in here) getting adequate choline (along with everything else)? How, please???

I'm a 6 year vegan, new here, and shocked at what I am learning from my own diary...

bracconiere

There's limited data in the db about choline, and also Biotin...Which is why i supplement for both..It does seem like beer is a known good source of choline though...lol

DonnaLH

I have looked up choline sources from various supposedly reliable databases and see that I would need to eat about 6 cups of the highest ones (specific beans & greens, which is the mainstay of my diet) to reach the goal. I typically eat a cup of mixed beans and about 7 cups of mixed greens per day, but I am coming nowhere close.

bracconiere

l was just doing a quick search, and doesn't look like there's too many vegan options, apparently beef brains are a good source...lol, eggs also...

more searching refined to vegan foods, and shiitake mushrooms are good, cholla nuts, whatever that is, looks the best..Per calorie....looks like maybe you should investigate more mushrooms? just from a quick per calorie search on cron-o-meter...

it's a tough one for sure..Wheat germ seems like a good source also...

DonnaLH

Yes, thank you. I've followed Dr. Fuhrman's recommendations, summarized as "Greens, Beans, Onions, Mushrooms, Berries, & Seeds" for years.

I hope to get this figured out soon, as I am reluctant to add even more supplements to my growing arsenal, best to get it from food if possible.

I think this could be of great value to the vegan community, especially those (like myself) with genetic issues with methylation (I am NO expert, just learning). This might be the new question, "Where do you get your choline?"

DonnaLH

Have you tried to buy organic wheat germ lately? Fresh? Not easy to find (I understand some are available on Amazon, but...

bracconiere

My custom USDA search proggy, says soy flour defatted is a good source...

lol, and no never organic, and i have a big bucket of very rancid wheat germ, i don't know what to do with...Just trying to get creative with a very difficult problem...soy protein isolate looks like a good source, soy flour full fat, all these are 100g's portions though....

what other supps do you take, choline, biotin, b12 and D are all i need? as far as vitamins, and minerals don't bother me as much, i take dolomite for calcium, and a zinc (albeit very diluted from what comes in the bottle 50mg is way too much)....

bracconiere

as far as just learning, that's what makes this self-taught approach to nutrition so much fun! i want to get a spectrometer and test food myself for vitamins! lol

And as far as meat eaters, the real question would be (to end the argument) where do you get your Vitamin C!

bracconiere

sun-dried tomatoes are good...and 100g's of ground mustard seed, if you can figure out a way to eat that much mustard....

DonnaLH

Yeah, rancidity with all these healthful fats is a real problem... compost, maybe.

I have been under the impression from Drs Greger and Fuhrman's books and other sources that the 6 mandatory supplements for those on a vegan diet are:
B12, D(3?), K2, Omega-3 (lots to learn/wonder here about one's genetic ability to form the necessary long chain fatty acids...), Iodine, Zinc.

Looking at my 2 days on Conometer zinc did not appear to be the challenge it is said to be(?).

Yeah, that was my personal question when I saw the sudden rise of the "Carnivore Diet", and those claiming that meat has "all the necessary nutrients"??? I know humans are omnivores with a wide range of survival tactics, but I'm looking to a long healthspan...

DonnaLH

Yeah, mustard might be an interesting approach, might help with sulforaphane formation in cooked brassicas too. I had not found the dried tomato reference yet, sounds good!

DonnaLH

Wanna help me build a hypothetical day to see what we get?

bracconiere

already working on the hypothetical day, was trying to get it so that i could post a "what if all this was actually edible" pic...lol

and i'm not vegan but mostly vegetarian, and planing a day in advance to try and work a steak into a 'complete meal plan' is one reason i have fun doing it once in a while, it just is expensive and a challenge....

bracconiere

as far as Omega-3's...i eat a lot of flax and i see on DirectLabs it's 'only' ~140 to get my blood tested for EPA/DHA to see if my ounce a day is working, planing on splurging and getting it done, in a few months time...

bracconiere

@DonnaLH I just should add that your enthusiasm and energy are the exact reason i decided to start posting here! LOVE IT!

DonnaLH

"enthusiasm"? You should have seen me stomping around yesterday, MAD that I had assumed I was "doing it pretty good if not perfectly", and "energy"?, lack of it is one of my personal concerns, and apparently a "symptom" of choline deficiency.

bracconiere

not sure if this is the solution or a supp, but check out lecithin....just remembered that one, could make a mayo or something with it also....

DonnaLH

Define "lots of flax"... I'm backing off of my 4 T/day in my breakfast smoothie after 2 days on Conometer.

bracconiere

lol, i'm going to make lieutenant(SP?) with all these likes i'm getting! lol, inside joke of the forum, check out "Bugs"....

Susan_RD_101

The first thing I want to mention about choline is that it has an AI, not an RDA... This means that we don't have good research to determine how much choline we actually need.

The second thing worth mentioning is that DRI's were determined from individuals eating omnivorous diets. Future research is needed to determine if on a vegan diet, the body can adapt to better absorb certain nutrients (as is seen with the absorption of iron).

In a practical sense, I only worry about choline when it comes to pregnant women as it has a role in preventing neural tube defects. Other than that, I encourage food with a good source of choline including some of those mentioned above. And keep in mind that the database may not be able to reflect all sources of choline due to limitations on food labeling.

At the end of the day, we know a vegan diet can help prevent and manage chronic disease; I haven't seen anyone walking into my office with a choline deficiency. Even if this was an issue for people, it doesn't seem to be significant enough to negatively influence a vegan's health.

Kind regards,

bracconiere

i eat about a ounce a day, by weight, ground....being that when i first started doing this i learned that ALA is poorly converted, and was motivated by saving money...i figured i could max out my ALA with flax for pennies, and it cost more to even look at salmon...so i get on avg about 5g's ALA from flax a day and about 16g's omega-6(forget the abrv for it) from sunflower seeds....i shoot for a 3:1 ratio...maybe 4:1...haven't made up my mind , but blood work will help me to do it...

bracconiere

check out my thread about my granola, that's pretty much my fat profile for the day...

DonnaLH

Well, thank you Susan, I understand your points, and I appreciate your level-headed response to my panic; though it seems reasonable to wonder... it may be more of a concern for aging Norwegians than for others(?)

That is sort of a joke, but my DNA test surprised me in a few ways, one was that I am twice as Nordic as I knew, and also that I am "compound hetero" for the MTHFR polymorphism, which my reading yesterday (on a legit site) stated involved choline besides folate & B12... I'm beginning to wonder how quickly genetic groups may have lost their ability to "manufacture" certain nutrients (Nordics) and choline seems to be involved in aging as well as pregnancy. I'm not giving up my concern so easily!

DonnaLH

Raw lentil... "granola"? Oh my, my son thinks I'm... "brave" with my food. Did I find the right link? It says "morning breakfast".

bracconiere

WHOA! you say PANIC? on that note i'd say calm down, listen to @Susan_RD_101 , and just have energetic fun! Food is all different, we're all different, there's no real way to know 'exactly' how much choline is anything unless you test it for it right before eating it...just the testing that's been done can lead us in the right direction....

bracconiere

kinda curious how this ended, did the lecithin solve your problem? or we still on for a "if it was edible showdown?"

bracconiere

damn, i didn't see that you looked at the granola...posted at the same time i guess, not raw i bake it in a loaf then food proccess into something like grape nuts...serve it with milk and brown sugar....the lentils are there to make it a complete protein...without them my methione is higher that my lysine....(beans/grains and all that sorta stuff), but in defense of your vegan diet, meat is low in leucine and, valine....

DonnaLH

I've been reading and playing with a hypothetical day, most of the day today, and getting "enough" choline (I downgraded my goal to 300 mg based on an article) does seem doable, with whole plant foods, though my food choices may not be the most efficient, and the macros are way off - higher in protein*, and lower in fats & net carbs than I think I want.

Apparently vegans don't have the problems most people imagine they do, but they/we may have other unrecognized problems?

*choline seems to come with a lot of protein whether you want it or not.

bracconiere

well your in the right place to figure out nutritional problems...i wouldn't worry too much about macro's, i'm convinced MyFitnessPal started that, too compensate for their lack of nutrient data... not sure about choline, new to me, but i know vitamin E comes with a lot of plant fats too...being that @Susan_RD_101 went to school for this sorta thing, maybe next monday when she makes her rounds, she'll enlighten us about the biological role choline plays in the body?

DonnaLH

I do want to express how grateful I am to have access to this wonderful resource!

I know I could have looked up each food, built a spreadsheet, etc, but it never occurred to me that it might even be worth consideration, as I trusted that my diet was so good... the only reason I got curious about this was my interest in mimicking the "Fasting Mimicking Diet" which requires a certain macro balance... but this has turned into a real education, and I will definitely continue to learn from it.

DonnaLH

From my reading, and why I got so concerned, Choline is involved in the methylation cycle, energy production, DNA repair, neurological problems, and a deficiency can lead to fatty liver, high homocysteine...