Lack of correlation between breath and blood ketone levels

tittiger

Hi! I posted this question some time ago, and either it was not answered or I missed the answer, so let's go at it again:

I have noticed on several occasions that my Ketonix will flash green in the high range indicating the Keyton acetone (I believe). I have been led to believe that there was a strong correlation between the acetone ketones in your breath and the BHB ketones in your blood.

That does not seem to be the case with me. At least some of the time. This evening an hour after dinner my glucose was 116 and I got 7 flashes on the Ketonix. Curious as I have been relying on the ketonix a lot to save money, I did a blood test that indicated that BHB was at 0.3 mmn/L

I have a lot of ideas of what may be going on, most of them conjecture as I am not an expert in this area. So I ask you that read this post, to give me some ideas based upon what you know.

FWIW it would be nice if the graphing of these 2 biometrics was implemented better so that I could take a look and see what the data really says.

Thank in advance
Joe Tittiger - Seymour Missouri

Susan_RD_101

Hi Tittiger,

Thanks for your question. I'm going to direct it to @Frank , who is our resident keto expert. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the products you are using so can't really comment, but it might be worth following up with the company.

Kind regards,

tittiger

Thanks very much Susan.
It has been my experience , that dealing with Ketonix as an individual is very frustrating and unproductive (if their device is the issue and I an not sure that it is, it could be the "keto Mojo" BHB meter) as their native language is Swedish.

I really don't thing that it is the biometrics that are off.
My gut says that this is just the way that my body works, and I would
like to further understand the involved physiology so that I can better interprit
the biometrics that I am getting from both devices.

tittiger

UPDATE:
The Ketonix unit may be the problem. For months I have had glitches with it (and a WARNING getting warranty service was PITA and never done) and today as a stand alone device, it would turn solid blue indicating that is is ready to be used, and then 3 times trying to use it, it refused to do anything. My only explanation other than failure is that somehow I am completely out of ketosis.

Be right back as I do a blood test to verify what is happening:
OK according to my "Keto Mojo" BHB meter I am at ).3 mmo/L

But given the very weak correlations I have seen between blood and breath ketones it is entirely possible that my breath ketones are much lower. BUT that is in conflict of my observations from the past where breath ketones are sometime high and blood ketones low. I have never seen the reverse. It sure would be nice now if Chronometer was capable of plotting these 2 so I could take a look at the past recordings to double check my memory.

Feel free to DL my data and use what ever tools that you want to take a look at my data points if it will help you figure this out.

Too bad I don't have backup devices for both the Keonix unit and the Keto Mojo to double check them. Not sure what is going on at this point. Will think about it and wait for you guys to get back with your thoughts.

Thanks!
Joe

tittiger

OK... I have a bit more clarity:
Both meters seems to be functioning correctly.
Today at 6pm on just heavy cream and tea all day
my blood ketones were 1.6 mmo/l while my breath was one green flash on the ketonix.

Looks like at least today my body prefers to make BHB and not acetate(?)....
I swear I have seen it in the reverse where acetate is high and BHB low, but usually like today.

I have always heard that there was a strong correlation between BHB and acetate.
That does not seem to be the case with me. At least today.
The reason this is important is that I used to rely a lot on breath and assume that when it was low that my blood levels were also.

Wish I had the time to finish this book. It seems to have a lot of the info I am looking for:

The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living

I'll be back when someone has something to add.

tittiger

Susan I thought you were getting back with me?

This screen shot from today 1/10/18 shows no correlation at all between breath and blood ketones..... What is going on? I thought that there was supposed to be a correlation.

You mean I can not even easily post a screenshot in this POS overpriced forum?
Are you f'ing kidding me? WTF? I am NOT going to type in that data. I should just give up on these forums. This is the second time I started a thread on this topic go get answers and nothing.. either time...I will figure it out myself.

This forum is next to useless and it still has the PITA one hour editing lock.

Susan_RD_101

Hi @tittiger

In general, I check in with the forums twice a week, answering questions that fall within my scope of practice and/or with questions that I am comfortable providing answers to. As a dietitian with an expertise in plant-based nutrition, eating disorder recovery, and chronic disease management, I don't typically work with those following a keto diet. As such, I am unable to answer your question with the accuracy and depth I feel you are craving. Frank is another consultant with Cronometer who is quite knowledgeable about keto diets, but I am unsure how often he is on the forums.

What I can tell you is that in clinical settings, ketosis would be measured through blood and urine, not breath, which tells me it is an unreliable and/or inaccurate predictor of ketosis. I also found this article, which you may find interesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5097355/

Lastly, as a regulated health professional, I am not allowed to provide you with individual health information in a public forum. However, I think it might be helpful to share your data with a dietitian in your area who is knowledgeable of keto diets.

And just as a friendly reminder, we request that posted comments remain respectful.

Kind regards,

tittiger

Thanks for the info Susan

Perhaps off topic, and not to disparage you, but I find our system of providing a "slave license" for someone to exercise the absolute right to earn a living, is in reality a method to muzzle their again absolute right to free speech -- despicable and totally contrary to the founding principles of this country, and the belief that all men are created equal. i.e I have the right to free speech here and you do not. This "moral relativism" if you care to research it is actually a Satanic Principle.

I also through much research view anything that the NIH puts out with a jaundiced eye. Not saying that the info is inaccurate. Only that a broken clock is correct twice a day.

I could write a tome on this topic, but life is short and I have said my piece.

FWIW I was an engineering student at Carnegie Mellon University I do appreciate real science, but when government get's involved in science what we usually get is propaganda.

I also factor in that 99.9% of what we "know" has not been verified by dubious double blind studies. My take is that we do not need to double blind study everything in life.

What we should be questioning are the double blind studies of the Big Pharma poisons that are funded by big pharma itself, or the government, because they usually get the results that they are looking for.

Thanks and Good Speed Susan.

tittiger

Another thought Susan:
Isn't the definition of ketosis based on blood somewhat circular?
(not saying that it might be the most accurate measurement)
But could my body not at times vacillate between predominantly burning BHB and Acetone? Not being able to accurately measure the ketone body Acetone doesn't change things does it?

This is assuming that my memory serves me correctly and that acetone is a ketone and not a precursor or byproduct.

Yet another thought:

I woke up today at 5am and my blood BHB was 0.3 mmo/L
Could it not be that my body only needs this level of ketones at this point in time and that I am still predominantly burning Ketones (or fatty acids in the blood) and not sugar?

I often wonder that when my ketones are unexpedly low that perhaps I am burning fatty acids in the blood rather than ketones.

One thing is clear is that I and even the "experts" have a lot to learn.

Alice

Experts always something to learn and always should be, as we should be our biggest advocate and learn ourselves. I have Multiple Sclerosis and was let go from a Doctor from Swedish because I was uncooperative (refused to lie-4 times and join a clinical trial that I wasn't qualified for. That would muddle the results!), was scared into trying a Disease Modifying Drug ...a third time and it almost killed me.
I did Atkins/Keto since 2000, with breaks for pregnancy as per my Doctors orders (preterm labor issues), went back into my normal rhythm and ended up 87 pounds, although I swear I didn't look it (more like 387 pounds), but was a good size of 110-120 after malnutrition causes me to get hurt and spent time in the hospital...eating peanut butter and special drinks so I wouldn't lose my leg from a full thickness leg burn.
At any rate, breath really is unreliable. Blood is best, urine is second and every way any person's body acts is different. I'm strict as heck, but after steroids, medications, major sepsis twice and the eating disorder that my doctor called me on (the vitamins in your blood aren't from food...I was not expecting that from him), I have a dead thyroid. It doesn't seem to be working.
You could lose weight with a lower ketone count than me. Almost a guarantee. Everybody is different. Focus on your health. Im new in this forum and eating app, but Im open to talking in a civilized manner!
Also, blood testing could tell you what kind of ketosis you are in. If you are in Ketoacidosis, you need to see a doctor. That's not a good thing and is different than ketosis. Diabetics, autoimmune diseases and cancer can cause high readings on that.
It'll make you take a dirt nap in no time, so take stock in that, also.
Love and Light!

tittiger

Since my original post I have picked up a lot more info from some excellent podcasts on keto, such as Jimmy Moores 2 podcasts.

http://ketotalk.com/

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/

I am finding out that keto doctors and experts do not agree on a lot of the details. This may be due both due to bio-individuality and that this is new science

From what I currently know, carrying a child while in ketosis, is, healthier for both the mother and the child. I think that your doctor was a group thinking quack just like most MD's are when it comes to anything other than an acute condition.

Anyhow as time goes on I obsess less and less on numbers and more and more on results and the bigger picture.